tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post7958214982237947604..comments2023-05-23T06:10:26.399-05:00Comments on Borderless Blogging: Young, Restless and Uninformed: Responding to Kevin DeYoung on Insider MovementsAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13991218555078662281noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-70075325724253535102013-02-15T11:30:30.944-06:002013-02-15T11:30:30.944-06:00You are welcome.You are welcome.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13991218555078662281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-81413916466138947412013-02-15T11:30:21.816-06:002013-02-15T11:30:21.816-06:00Brother Salaam, I believe I have been quite carefu...Brother Salaam, I believe I have been quite careful in my dealing with Pastor Kevin's questions and concerns. If I have made a mistake somewhere, I'd ask you to point that out specifically. <br /><br />As for a label like "IM Proponent", I don't know what that would entail so I can neither confirm nor deny that I am one. I am personally engaged in a work in a non-Muslim context that many would label as an IM. I would certainly describe its trajectory as insider (as opposed to outsider/extractionary). Certainly I am a proponent of that. But, again, "The Insider Movement" doesn't exist as a unified consistent thing, so it really isn't possible to be FOR it or AGAINST it. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13991218555078662281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-6129330120745093532013-02-12T05:48:21.233-06:002013-02-12T05:48:21.233-06:00Hi Salaam,
I really apprecaite your passion! Tha...Hi Salaam,<br /><br />I really apprecaite your passion! Thank you for calling us back to the Bible.<br /><br />Missiology is by definition inclusive of the social sciences. Theology always has a dialogue partner; we cannot do theology in a vacuum. (Systematic theology is the dialogue between philosophy and the Bible.) The IM needs to be looked at missiologically (including in a way that isn’t divorced from context). I’m only bringing this issue up because it appears you might understand the meaning of “sola scriptura.” I wholeheartedly agree that we shouldn’t “proof text”, but honestly, I see Traditionalists (or Those-who-love-Christendom TWLC ;) ) doing the exact same thing. <br /><br />For a good example of a missiological approach to socio-religious identity, see http://muslimministry.blogspot.com/2013/02/another-nail-in-c-spectrums-coffin.html<br /><br />The Bible sets the foundation and trajectory of the Insider discussion (because it points to the exclusive, glorious sufficiency of Christ in all things), but the social sciences make sure we stay grounded in reality, and not in some idealistic discussion that never happens anywhere (this is what keep hearing from Traditionalists).<br /><br />BTW, i'm NOT an IM proponet, but neither am I Traditionalist. Cody is only pointing out some obvious missiological falacies (not just here but in other places as well) among Traditionalists, and I'm pretty sure he's not an IM proponent as well.<br /><br />Hope this helps,<br />WarrickWarrickhttp://muslimministry.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-46698242179303083802013-02-11T14:46:26.680-06:002013-02-11T14:46:26.680-06:00Great article. Thanks for writing it.Great article. Thanks for writing it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-36727375897276019332013-02-11T06:13:20.901-06:002013-02-11T06:13:20.901-06:00Greetings.
I have lived and worked in Muslim ma...Greetings.<br /> I have lived and worked in Muslim majority countries for the last 12 years. I am passionate to see them come to Christ. I have seen first-hand the divisions that those endeared to "hyper seeker-friendly Muslim outreach methods" [HSFMOM] [call it IM if you like] have sown in these areas. I have heard first-hand the pain of Bengalis being treated as guinea-pigs for Western missiological experimenters. What am I saying? Cody, please be careful about dismissing any missiological criticism over very real issues. I share deYoung's Reformed persuasion and because we believe in sola scriptura, we want to see it exegeted rightly, also by [HSFMOM]. This was not stressed by Kevin, but look at all of the proof texts of [HSFMOM] and you will see them wanting. That is because those endeared to this--and yes their level of endearment varies--tend to be social scientists first--read Rebecca Lewis---and theologians second. <br />Blessings on your day.<br />Shalom Salaam Cornichenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-48754338047695352642013-02-10T12:25:52.049-06:002013-02-10T12:25:52.049-06:00Thanks, Warrick. As always, your feedback hits the...Thanks, Warrick. As always, your feedback hits the nail on the proverbial head. I'm excited to dig into your latest post on the C-spectrum. Getting to that next. http://muslimministry.blogspot.com/2013/02/another-nail-in-c-spectrums-coffin.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13991218555078662281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-24154671872266976342013-02-10T02:11:01.810-06:002013-02-10T02:11:01.810-06:00I think there is a lot of ingrained fundamentalism...I think there is a lot of ingrained fundamentalism in the opponents of IM. (I'm not an IM proponent.) Theology always has a conversation partner (the bible + something) but only a fundamentalist would deny this. It's not necessarily a Reformed issue, but an issue of nascent fundamentalism.<br /> <br />Also, when DeYoung asks about the "role of the church" he appears to ignore Abu Jaz emphasis on a "Muslim focus church planting strategy"! <br /><br />DeYoung also fails to see how the Amercian evangelical church IS already insider. He accuses Abu Jaz of a naive view of culture, when I actually think its a case of the kettle calling the pot black. I have a lot of respect for DeYoung, but I'm afraid that he might be operating within a fundatmentalist, Christendom paradigm. (I know that's not fair of me to say without backing up, but that's my sense from many of his writings, and I don't think I'm alone in this opinion.)Warrickhttp://muslimministry.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-43369012385588547682013-02-09T20:55:03.212-06:002013-02-09T20:55:03.212-06:00Big AMEN, Rich.Big AMEN, Rich.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13991218555078662281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-34516901338281722862013-02-09T20:54:45.782-06:002013-02-09T20:54:45.782-06:00Thank you for the feedback. I'm afraid it is n...Thank you for the feedback. I'm afraid it is not altogether clear where you stand on the issue. In this case, is "old culture" referring to the old Muslim context or Christian traditionalism?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13991218555078662281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-5351354501025557652013-02-09T20:52:32.971-06:002013-02-09T20:52:32.971-06:00Worth more than two cents, Indo. Great insight. Th...Worth more than two cents, Indo. Great insight. Thank you for sharing!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13991218555078662281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-87865256496377615922013-02-09T16:52:02.037-06:002013-02-09T16:52:02.037-06:00"Sadly, all this talk seems to be doing very ..."Sadly, all this talk seems to be doing very little to actually mobilize Christians to become engaged in cross-cultural evangelism or even simply to develop a cross-cultural friendships."<br /><br />Agreed, thanks Cody for a terrific article. I encourage everyone to take the precious little moments that God has given us here on earth, go to our neighbors and take food daily with them. Then let the fragrance of Christ emanate from us to them. If Jesus was to have worn a coat and left it here 2,000 years ago and we had that same coat in perfect condition today, we should wear that coat so that when someone sees it they know it is Jesus' coat and that we wear it very well. - RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-7105328097596871862013-02-09T11:39:42.953-06:002013-02-09T11:39:42.953-06:00The tension is constant ever since the time of the...The tension is constant ever since the time of the Apostles. He who defines reality from his vantage point will always have difficulty recognizing any divergent view. No hesitation crosses in his mind as to the existence of a different option from another point of view for he has only one view. It is not because there is no merit in the divergent view (in this case the contextualization). The major problem is this: from the angle of the outsider that reality is invisible. The option you have is to wait until he moves to a different position. The problem is in most of the cases such people do not move unless they die or some sort of earth quake happens. They are not willing to change. Reality is complex. The fool has the advantage of avoiding the pain of dealing with the complex nature of the truth. <br />The new and divergent approach scares those who are in the comfort of the “unchangeable” old culture. The one great threat of new approaches bring to the equation is that they are not under the control of the old system. It is new. It is unknown. In general old systems are control freaks. They shot at anything new that deviate from the old system. By the way I am not saying everything old is bad. Let us not waste our time battling. Better to have wisdom to create synergy between the old and the new system. Both have something to contribute in their respective domain. <br />Preach hearsay from the old pulpit and people will give you applause. Communicate truth from a new pulpit (simply changing the color or shape of the pulpit) and then be ready to be stoned. That should change. The higher road requires reflection and constructive dialogue. Dialogue requires inquisitive mind that is willing to acquire a new insight from the changing dynamics of society. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-61341785277605364532013-02-07T21:17:15.978-06:002013-02-07T21:17:15.978-06:00Thanks for stopping by, Andrew. Seems not only the...Thanks for stopping by, Andrew. Seems not only the same criticisms but many of the same critics as well.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13991218555078662281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-38413429433726487162013-02-07T21:05:12.853-06:002013-02-07T21:05:12.853-06:00i feel like the same misunderstandings that plague...i feel like the same misunderstandings that plagued critics of the emergent church are being recycled in this new controversy. good stuff here, cody.andrewhttp://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-63060260593157927822013-02-07T03:16:10.860-06:002013-02-07T03:16:10.860-06:00Yesterday my 3 year old daughter was trying to cou...Yesterday my 3 year old daughter was trying to count the number of people at our table and, at first, kept forgetting to count herself. How often do we make the same mistake in our considerations of how another culture embodies this thing called "church"? We are quick to point to all of the differences but are blind to our own peculiarities. Once we pointed out to my daughter that she was omitting herself she erred on the other side and counted herself twice as she went around the table. This seems to be the other common error I see from the western church, that even when they acknowledge the diversity of worship forms and theologies around the world they often give twice the weight to their own peculiarities. Just my two cents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-35881661124230904752013-02-06T22:25:42.281-06:002013-02-06T22:25:42.281-06:00I agree with you. I don't know why it appears,...I agree with you. I don't know why it appears, as you say, that the Reformed crowd is louder on this issue. I fall more into that theological perspective myself and obviously take a different view on contextualization. Yes, problems do arise from putting ecclesiology before missiology, but don't have to. I know some very missionaries with very, very strongly ecclesiological positions who are nevertheless fine contextualizers. I think the problem lies more in the cultural presuppositions and biases that you have indicated. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13991218555078662281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9206660347169327219.post-55953731372950622262013-02-06T21:50:33.292-06:002013-02-06T21:50:33.292-06:00All of these (well-intentioned) voices crying out ...All of these (well-intentioned) voices crying out about the dangers of contextualization hardly ever seem to take into account that their own theology and ecclesiology has been contextualized from/into Western cultural traditions/forms. Why do we think that we (Americans) hold the only true standard of what constitutes a church? In other words, if a local body of Christ doesn't pass our test of "church", then they (those dangerous insiders), must be "jettisoning the idea of church altogether”. And not to pick a fight, but from my limited perspective it seems that it's mostly the Reformed (pastoral) crowd that has these issues (realizing that we all have our own issues to deal with :). Cody, in your opinion, does this come from putting the ecclesiological cart before the missiological horse?Nathan Harperhttp://www.theworldisourneighborhood.comnoreply@blogger.com